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Normandy Luxe Faux Pas 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:16 pm Reply with quote
mountaindave
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 75
Location: Flathead Valley, MT
So last summer I took my Normandy Luxe Competition front hub apart to rebuild it and then stashed it away over the winter as cars needed to fit in the garage... and now have no idea what sized bearings came out or how many. Embarassed

There was some 9-10-11 rule I heard about for hubs and BBs, but can't recall the specifics...

Help?

MD
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:19 pm Reply with quote
mountaindave
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 75
Location: Flathead Valley, MT
Does 9 1/4" for rear hub and 10 3/16" for front hub sound reasonable? That would make the BB 11 of something?...

However... VeloBase claims that gold label Normandy Luxe Comps take 3/16" 12x12 up front...

I guess I will have to see how many can fit.

I still haven't figured out a good way to replace the pitted cones... I've thought of taking epoxy, making a mold of a decent part of the cone, then using some fine grit sandpaper to polish the cone up until the pit is gone. Just a thought...

MD
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:26 pm Reply with quote
Frenchbuilt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 443
Not 100% sure but I "believe" these are replacements

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/NOS-VINTAGE-SPIDEL-REAR-HUB-AXLE-/151218983590?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23355a92a6

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/NOS-VINTAGE-SPIDEL-FRONT-HUB-AXLE-/161209129146?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=

I happened to be looking for Spidel marked shifters and came across these awhile back. Dimensions are given so you can measure and check. Spidel marked hubs are the same as Maillard and Normandy.

I have cleaned up cones by locking on old axle and chucking in drill press followed by sand paper/emery paper wrapped around a round tube of aprox. same shape of cone contact area. Worked great.
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Normand Luxe Competition Hubs 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:30 am Reply with quote
verktyg
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 2814
Location: SF Bay Area
According to Sutherland's Handbook For Bicycle Mechanics 2nd and 5th editions:

Normandy Competition (old style with shallow cut cones)

Front hubs - 12 ea. 3/16" balls per side.
Rear hubs - 9 ea. 1/4" balls per side




The "shallow cut" cones have straight tapers without any radius in the ball track. They're different than the later cones on eBay.



These cones were always difficult to get. We bought them from a local Peugeot dealer - PX10s used those hubs too. By 1976 they were unobtainable in the US.

I wouldn't try to regrind the pitted cones. They may only be surface hardened. Just try to live with them and replace the bearings as needed. You probably wont feel anything while riding.

_________________
Chas.
SF Bay Area, CA USA
==============
1984 Criterium
1969 TdF
1971 TdF
1974 TdF
1984 TdF x 2 Bikes
1970 SC
1971 SC
1972 SC
1984 SC
1984 Team Pro
1985 Professional
1990s Team Replica
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:57 am Reply with quote
mountaindave
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 75
Location: Flathead Valley, MT
They are not pitted that bad. I think I'll just repack and replace bearings as needed. Hopefully it won't start transfering damage to the cups which are still in good condition. This isn't going to be a 5,000 mile per year bike. This is going to be a Cino bike where I put maybe 500-1,000 on it this year at most.

Thanks for the replies!
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Normandy Cones 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:24 pm Reply with quote
verktyg
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 2814
Location: SF Bay Area
mountaindave wrote:
They are not pitted that bad. I think I'll just repack and replace bearings as needed. Hopefully it won't start transfering damage to the cups which are still in good condition. This isn't going to be a 5,000 mile per year bike. This is going to be a Cino bike where I put maybe 500-1,000 on it this year at most.

Thanks for the replies!


We used to import cones for the standard Normandy Sport hubs, the ones that were used on millions of bikes over the years.



Normandy Sport rear axles with the radiused bearing track cones. These were are later versions with better quality cones. Normand Sport cones were unground, just produced on screw machines and surface hardened! Sad




Those cones came loose packed in bags of 100. We wholesaled most of them but we inspected all of the cones we that kept for our shop.

We ended up throwing out 10% to 20% because they were pitted from the factory!

They cost us pennies apiece and we sold them cheap so we could afford the scrap rate.


Back in the 70s, I think that we charged something like $20.00 USD labor to repack all of the bearings on a bike! Parts were extra.

If the wheels were in too bad condition - bent rims, broken spokes, damaged hubs, etc. we sold them new wheels for ~$10.00 for steel rims and ~12.00 for wheels with Super Champion Mod 58 alloy rims and Normandy Sport QR hubs.

Those wheels we imported from Andre Bertin/Milremo cost us ~$5.00 each for steel rims and $6.00 for alloy. They packed them in the shipping containers along with the bike we brought in so freight from France was almost nothing! Shocked

Since the alloy rimmed wheels were so cheap we stopped messing with steel rims.

That was back in the day when you could buy a decent French made gas pipe framed 10 speed bike for under $100.00 USD. By comparison, a VW Beetle sold for $1900.00! Shocked

Also, boxed sets of MAFAC Racer brakes complete with levers, cables and all of the hardware cost us ~$6.00 each. We wholesaled them for $12.00 - it was a cheap source for replacement parts! Cool

_________________
Chas.
SF Bay Area, CA USA
==============
1984 Criterium
1969 TdF
1971 TdF
1974 TdF
1984 TdF x 2 Bikes
1970 SC
1971 SC
1972 SC
1984 SC
1984 Team Pro
1985 Professional
1990s Team Replica
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closer 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:04 am Reply with quote
Frenchbuilt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 443
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/NOS-VINTAGE-MAILLARD-REAR-AND-FRONT-HUB-AXLES-/151218963220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23355a4314
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Re: closer 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:19 pm Reply with quote
verktyg
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 2814
Location: SF Bay Area
Frenchbuilt wrote:
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/NOS-VINTAGE-MAILLARD-REAR-AND-FRONT-HUB-AXLES-/151218963220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23355a4314


Dan,

Those are QR axle sets for the standard Normandy Sport large flange and Atom small flange hubs.

If I remember correctly, they wont work with Normandy Luxe Competition hubs.

Those cones have a radius in the ball track area (where the balls make contact). Normandy Luxe Competition cones have no radius (see picture above).

Also, better quality cones have precision ground races (ball track areas).

Those cones where machined and heat treated to harden the surfaces but never finish ground to give smooth, accurate areas where the ball bearings make contact.

In other words, they were used in CHEAP hubs! Rolling Eyes

As I mentioned in my post above, we bought complete wheels with those hubs for $5.00-$6.00 each! Wink

Maillard/Spidel/Milremo 700 hubs were premium quality and had precision ground cups and cones. They meet or exceed the quality of sacred Campagnolo hubs! Twisted Evil

_________________
Chas.
SF Bay Area, CA USA
==============
1984 Criterium
1969 TdF
1971 TdF
1974 TdF
1984 TdF x 2 Bikes
1970 SC
1971 SC
1972 SC
1984 SC
1984 Team Pro
1985 Professional
1990s Team Replica
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:48 am Reply with quote
Frenchbuilt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 443
Hi Chas, thanks for the information.

Your right sometimes its just better to leave well enough alone and live with what you have. I was though, surprised at how "soft" the cones were when I turned one down several years back. Another surprise is how it seems that even "new" hubs are tight and rough. My box of old "new" hubs from the factory are "grind" tight and not just from hardened grease. Soometimes I wonder if they just went out this way waiting for someone down the line to adjust or maybe to be done at the bike shop.

Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:41 pm Reply with quote
mountaindave
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 75
Location: Flathead Valley, MT
Here are what my cones look like.



You can see that the left cone is pitted pretty badly all the way around while the right one is perfectly fine. If you look really closely you can see the polished line of wear on the right cone. The left one has one too, but isn't very visible. These appear to be the straight taper. Their is a bit of radius, but only at the very top of the taper, not where there is any contact.

The other thing I could do is purchase some used front hubs and hope that the cones are still in decent shape. What would be the harm in trying some other cones? Would they ride terribly different in the cups? I'm asking this as a total hub-noob who has no deep knowledge on how these work.

I do, however, understand a bit about surface hardening as I am also into classic SxS shotguns. (I know it is a bit of a stretch, but case coloring on guns is surface hardening.) Can a cone be turned down and then surface hardened again? It wouldn't be too hard to match the pitch and sand it down and re-harden with heat followed by quenching.

Everyone's input is very much appreciated!

MD
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:45 pm Reply with quote
vanhelmont
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 242
Location: Florida
In steel hardness goes along with brittleness, so case hardening is nice in firearms or cones because the part that is exposed to wear, the surface, is hard, while the rest is resilient. A soft, low carbon steel is first carburized by heating it with something that can supply carbon, then heated to about 750 C, then rapidly cooled. According to the wikipedia article, the high carbon layer can be up to 1.5 mm, limited by how fast carbon will diffuse into the steel. You might be able to grind off less than that and still have a hard cone.

I knew this stuff in theory, and was hoping I could find an easy way to do it, but you could look up how gunsmiths do it. They probably have worked out the best ways to carry it out on a small scale. Sounds like fun, but a lot of work for a cone!

Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:55 am Reply with quote
Frenchbuilt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 443
Send your photo to the Bicyclette in Paris at the following mail for "Enzo Savarino"

flambox.enzo@gmail.com



or phone they speak english:

00 33 650519489

They have your piece/cone (pretty sure)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:58 am Reply with quote
scozim
Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 629
Location: Ellensburg, WA
mountaindave wrote:
They are not pitted that bad. I think I'll just repack and replace bearings as needed. Hopefully it won't start transfering damage to the cups which are still in good condition. This isn't going to be a 5,000 mile per year bike. This is going to be a Cino bike where I put maybe 500-1,000 on it this year at most.

Thanks for the replies!


Ok, wait no suspense. If it's a Cino bike we need a photo.

I'm not doing Cino this year - one big ride a year is what I give myself on the family budget and it's RAMROD in WA state at the end of July this year. Leaning toward the Gitane TdF for that one.

_________________
1984 Gitane Sprint
1984 Gitane Tour de France
mid-1970's Gitane Olympic
Plus many more
http://eburgcycling.blogspot.com
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:12 am Reply with quote
mountaindave
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 75
Location: Flathead Valley, MT
Photos when I return from spring break...
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Normandy Luxe Faux Pas 
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