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Contador is still a punk 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:33 am Reply with quote
sandranian
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Even if he didn't contest Schleck for the stage today, he is still a punk. It does appear he is learning though, how to be a gracious winner. If he had come around Schleck at the last moment for the stage win, no one would have ever forgiven him. At least he learned that much. I thought his obvious effort to slow the peloton after Sanchez crashed was a bit much: Too much for the camera, and with nothing on the line, it was pure showboating.

Schleck obviously wasn't going to drop him today, which was a pity. But Schleck may have a few more Tours in him. Now he just has to hold on to 2nd place in that TT!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:29 pm Reply with quote
Wisey
Joined: 19 May 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
I actually thought Contador should have won the stage. The way Schleck rode was pathetic. Not that I doubt his ability as a climber, but you don't drop a tempo climber like Contador by riding tempo. He needed to attack again and again and either win or destroy himself in the attempt. Schleck proved today that he was not prepared to risk it all by continually attacking Contador. He had already resigned himself to 2nd and rode to defent that more than anything else. It's what Fignon was talking about in his book. It's all about the 'show' rather than the race. I think this may be the best we ever see from Schleck. Riis is the brains of the operation and without him next year, I think they will be at a loss. Andy is a dumb as dogs balls when it comes to tactical awareness. But we should see more of guys like this losing as they phase out radios anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:26 pm Reply with quote
nicolas
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Paris, France
Yes.

Andy schleck is the last of a very long Line of TDF GC contenders who declare war and say they don't have anything to lose and then fight for 2nd.

There was no way to take enough time on Contador in the last climb.

Journalists should stop comparing this race with the 1989 TDF... We've had a farce... Tactical errors, false solidarity & illusion of fair play...

Another example of this : President Sarkozy came to the race yesterday and asked Contador how comes Spain wins in almost every sport ? Alberto mumbled something of no interest. Did Sarkozy make his research ? Are there strong anti doping laws in Spain ? Whatever happened with opération puerto ?

Journalists praising Armstrong for his courage. The guy was supposed to be a GC contender and not only failed to help the team but also failed at winning a stage. As he was dropped, I guess he went for an experiment : what if I stopped taking drugs to see how it goes ? Ouch, cycling actually hurts !

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:40 pm Reply with quote
sandranian
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Quite a cynical post...probably a lot of truth there, though. I am not losing all hope. Remember, despite what we saw with the Tour, there were more French wins this year than there have been in a LONG time!

Being a fan of bicycles (the machines), I am quite disappointed that there was a battle between Specialized w/Sram vs. Specialized w/Sram. Boring, boring, boring. Like the days when all the riders were forced to ride the same bicycles!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:03 am Reply with quote
Wisey
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Nicolas, I agree with all your points. I am very disappointed in this years Tour. Sandman, I agree that it is a bit cynical, and that's exactly how I feel. I feel down because of how cynical I am about the sport, but I just can't get past all the BS that is right before our eyes. Having said that, I do agree that the increased success of the French riders in particular is testament to a "cleaner" sport. It is getting better. I look at the race this year and see Basso who I think may be clean. He has the same VO2Max as Hinault and Indurain at 88. Evans at 87. Look where they finished. This sport is still being run at two speeds. I think Carlos Sastre has been clean for most of his career, but then did what he had to do to win the Tour. His wattage on Alpe d'Huez that year was about 40 watts higher that what Evans can produce for 2 minute maximum effort. Then he backed that up with the TT of his life. I think he simply did waht he had to do to win, then he moved to a 'real' clean team in order to salve his conscience for the remainder of his career. What have we seen of Carlos since then? I also think that LA rode the Tour clean. Why? Maybe to see if it is true that the great riders will win, doped or not? The point is, there are the guys who pedal the super cadence with little effort, then there are the rest. And somebody remind me, who are all those Astana guys? Where did they come from? And since when that they had 8/10 of the best climbers in the world on their team? 1+1 just isn't = 2 here. But, then there is Menchov who seems to be riding on guts alone and he is almost up there. I like to thing that without their misfortune, both Vande Velde and Evans would have been in a similar position. But my cynical side says that it would have been AC, AS, FS, and SS racing for the podium and everyone else racing for 5th to 10th.

Just a final question to provoke some thought.
Some historical VO2Max Data:
Chris Boardman 80
Jonathon Vaughters 82-89
Cadel Evans 87
Ivan Basso 88
Miguel Indurain 88
Bernard Hinault 88
Greg LeMond 92-94

Of course there is more to an athlete than VO2Max alone, but this measurement certainly indicates the potential that an individual possesses.

So given how much faster the likes of AC and AS go up the climbs than some of these others, what must hteir VO2Max be? It has been extrapolated by others, and the answer is that they must be a long way outside the parameters of human beings. Or there is another factor.......

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:54 am Reply with quote
nicolas
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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sandranian wrote:
Quite a cynical post...


You're right, sorry about that.

It's just that, regarding the GC, neither the results nor the race itself make sense, IMO. But then again, if you look at the TDF history since 1991, there's not much else to say, except for Pantani, maybe, who was an artist in every possible way...good or bad.

I agree that when it comes to the race for the stage win, we'seen beautiful, generous moves. But I'd like to see the same story for the GC.

I'd like to feel detached from all this but when july comes... I just can't. I'll get over it this week-end as I'll be climbing the Ventoux for the first time when the riders reach Paris... My hometown.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:00 am Reply with quote
nicolas
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Hey Wisey, I posted before reading your last post. Fully agree.

And it IS getting better, so... I guess a small victory is better than no victory...

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Envious 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:34 pm Reply with quote
smilingroadrunner
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
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Good Luck and Good Health to you Nicolas on your adventure this weekend. Smile

Kansas is far from flat---some of the hills & byways of the Flint Hills in Eastern Kansas probably would rival what we see in the Belgium Classics.

Part of me wishes that some day I'll get to tackle a true mountain ride. Now that my sons are begining their adventures into adulthood. Hopefully my wife will allow me to attempt some time on the roads the next time we vacation in Colorado.

In the meantime I continue to recover from an annoying bout with Clostridium Deficile that screwed up Sad my riding log numbers so far for June & July.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:41 am Reply with quote
sandranian
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So, a former euro pro and well known cycling coach, whose name i won't mention but whom I will credit with the "strategery" here called it (with regards to the Tourmalet stage). Here is how Schleck/Riis should have engineered the stage:

Saxobank should have done NO work at all. Then, let Sanchez and/or Menchov attack. Schleck then follows the wheel of Contador, who has no choice but to go with Sanchez. Then, he counters when Contador has closed the gap. If he doesn't close it, then he lets Sanchez/Menchov win the tour.

A gamble for sure, because who knows if Sanchez/Menchov were in any position to attack...although Sanchez's high finish would seem to indicate that he was.

More importantly, though, this approach would be a gamble because Riis would be playing with his "guaranteed" second place finish. Obviously, Riis and Schleck were not willing to do whatever it took to win, only as much as they had to do not to lose. It would have/could have been more fun....

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:37 am Reply with quote
nicolas
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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That's interesting...

My idea was that, in order to win, Schleck had to attack before the last climb, in order to isolate Contador from the rest of his team.

From what I've heard, there were too much flat distance in between climbs. But my point is that I'm sure Contador would not have been confident enough to let his team do the work rather than jump in... I havé no strategy whatsoever, though...

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:33 am Reply with quote
nicolas
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Guys...

Something's happening right now !!!

Andy's back just 1 second behind Contador !

I'm taking back everything I said, go Andy !

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:41 am Reply with quote
nicolas
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Ok.. Seems like I'll be taking back everything I took back before... Contador is coming back...

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:55 am Reply with quote
scozim
Joined: 26 Sep 2008
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Great ride by Schleck. Too bad it wasn't enough.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:50 pm Reply with quote
Wisey
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I have to admit two things:

1) That was a pretty exciting finish to the race even if we ended status quo for the top two on GC.

2) I am overjoyed that the skinny climbers lot a huge chunk of time to Menchov. That is exactly how it should be. Maybe this Tour is cleaner that I have given credit for? I would be happy to be proved wrong on that account.

Just imagine if we'd had an ITT in the first week and Menchov was another minute closer. Now that really would have been exciting.

Re: the distance between the climbs. There was too much distance between the Madelaine and Galibier in the 87 Tour, and after that came La Plagne. This didn't stop Roche making a do or die effort that almost lost him the Tour, until he turned it around and made one of the most exciting races in history and saved his Tour. Nobody takes risks anymore. It was a fine line for Roche. If he had failed, he would have finished off the podium.

Hats off to both Schleck and Contador for gritting their teeth today. But for me Menchov is the GC rider of the Tour for never forgetting that he was racing for 1st place even if there was no realistic chance of getting there. Great racer. Next best prize for me goes to Cunego who has just about been in every move that went off the front for three weeks. Pity he hasn't won a stage yet, but terrific racing attitude.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:28 am Reply with quote
sandranian
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31 seconds:

(1) Schleck has that on Contador prior to the "Chain Slip".
(2) It is exactly how much time Contador beats Schleck by in the ITT.

Ironic, eh?

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