gitaneusa.com Forum Index » Pro Racing - Classics/Giro/Tour.... » Landis v. Armstrong Goto page 1, 2  Next    View previous topic :: View next topic  Landis v. Armstrong   Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:17 pm sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California So it occurred to me today, after seeing Floyd Landis' prologue results in the Tour of Utah: Landis last rode at the top level in 2006 when he claims to have won the Tour de France, and is 33 years old. He spent approx. 2.5 years off of the bike, and now trains and rides full time. Landis (33 yrs old) Tour of Utah Prologue Length: 4.5K Place: 53rd Time: -0:23 Not to say that the Tour of Utah field isn't top quality...but it isn't the Tour de France or the Giro...so losing 23 seconds in 4.5K while isn't bad (crap I would have lost 23 minutes)...it isn't particularly good either. Lance Armstrong retired after winning the TdF in 2005. He spent 3.5 years off of the bike, and is 37 years old. In comparison to the performance of Landis above, Armstrong's prologue in the TdF was quite different: Armstrong (37 yrs old) Tour de France Prologue Length: 15.5K Place: 10th Time: -0:40 So...Armstrong lost 40 seconds to Cancellara, the world champion, over 15.5K, and Landis lost 23 seconds - to Brent Bookwalter - over only 4.5K. I am not casting any aspersions here (right!), as comparing the two events considering timing, fitness levels, goals, etc. is like comparing gala apples to golden delicious, but doesn't this say something? If so...what do you think it means? _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com   Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:49 pm sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California Wow. Not a soul took the bait! _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com   Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:30 pm Wisey Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 631 Location: Brisbane, Australia Rats, I never even saw this post till just now..... Check the averages: Tour of Utah: Brookwater 43.5km/h (27m/h) Landis 40.9km/h (25.4m/h) TdF Prologue Cancellara 47.6km/h (29.5m/h) Armstrong 46km/h (28.5m/h) What were the conditions like at Utah. Those averages seem pretty slow unless it was bad weather/windy/uphill? Bottom line: Drugs/no drugs/who cares.... Landis will never have the engine that Armstrong has. But I guess you could say that LA is almost back to where he was at the height of his career, whereas Floyd would be in serious danger of being elimated in the Prolugue had he ridden the Tour. _________________ Kind Regards, Wisey Delta Dreamin'   Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:28 pm nicolas Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 543 Location: Paris, France Yeah, I don't think the question is about who's taking drugs and who's not. I think the question is about why they're doing it. And as always, Armstrong is putting his balls (sorry) ball on the table whereas Landis is recovering from something that has probably taken everything he had. _________________ "Ooooh Putain !!! C'est vous ?" -Greg LeMond www.greglemondfan.com   Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:41 pm Wisey Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 631 Location: Brisbane, Australia I'm no Floyd fan but....... If he was innocent then that's a real tough break, but he's hardly alone in the world of tough breaks . Anug San Sui Chi is still imprisoned in Burma . Tibet is still not free from China . And I could go on endlessly . So IF he was innocent, it's good to see that he's picked himself up, dusted off and is back in the game . If he was guilty , then he has served his time, and is free to get back in the game. I can't read minds and will probably never know the truth. I hope he is clean now, and hope he can have some success. I'm no Lance fan but....... If he's doing it for the love of the sport, then good on him. If he's doing it for cancer awareness, then good on him. If he's doing it to make as much hay while the sun is shinning, then I'd have to acknowledge that I'd probably do the same if I were in his position . I have nothing nice to sat about Alberto Donkeydor, so I won't. _________________ Kind Regards, Wisey Delta Dreamin'   Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:27 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Wisey wrote: I have nothing nice to sat about Alberto Donkeydor, so I won't. Says it all: As far as Floyd Landis is concerned, there were too many dubious things going on in the background. I don't want to hear any crap that the TdF has never been fixed, read about the postwar Tours! I had AVN (avascular necrosis) myself. In AVN the blood supply to the head of the femur dies and the joint deteriorates until there is just bone on bone contact. I endured 5 years of chronic pain until I had a total hip replacement. There was a 3-4 month period when just moving my leg was like getting kicked in the privates! It's amazing that Floyd could even ride much less walk. AVN Secondly, legal to use NSAIDs (non steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) such as aspirin, ibuprofen and naprosen can and do effect the body's hormones including testosterone. In high dosages they throw off all kinds of blood test results! I really don't trust the lack of controls used in the sample testing. In a US court of law the whole case would have been thrown out for lack of evidence. Chas. the skeptic This just in from Cyclingnews....   Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:28 am sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California "Armstrong's Tour Blood Levels Debated" http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com ...& now one on Landis!   Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:45 am sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California Piece regarding Landis' struggles this year: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/landis-rides-a-hard-road-back _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com Blood tests   Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:50 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Come on now! This is a man who couldn't break wind without it being analyzed! Knowing he's going to be under such close scrutiny, do you think that he would be stupid enough to take a banned substance? I had a blood test one time that came back saying that I had rheumatoid arthritis and lupus. Another time my PSA score was 16 (PSA is the screening test for prostate cancer, <4 is normal)! Eating a poppy seed roll will show up for days in drug tests for opiates! Chas. the doper!   Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:55 am sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California Chas.... I am not agreeing with any of this, just posting what is being said about it. Regarding LA, I would imagine that his publication of his blood values is going to spark all kinds of debate. Bradley Wiggins did the same thing, and I am wondering at what point (today? tomorrow?) someone is going to compare the two. If BW's blood values follow the (allegedly) "routine" or "expected" patterns, then LA's will be probably further scrutinized. However, if they don't, then I guess the good Dr.'s will have to reassess the "routine" or "expected" patterns, eh? Also, what doesn't appear to be taken into consideration is that Lance won SEVEN tours. He is NOT normal, by any measure. He must have something different physiologically to be able to do that kind of stuff. Superman? No. More-Super-Than-Most-Man? Yes. Is the "More" due to doping? I tend to agree with you: I don't think so. _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com Re: Blood tests   Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:44 pm Wisey Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 631 Location: Brisbane, Australia verktyg wrote: Knowing he's going to be under such close scrutiny, do you think that he would be stupid enough to take a banned substance? Chas. the doper! uh, Danillo DiLuca.......... Martina Hingis........ do you really want me to write an endless list. Perhaps these people are bone stupid, or perhaps they are very confident that they will return test values that are under the acceptable limits. But Hingis used coke before a major event, and DiLuca used EPO that he knew could be tested, and knew he was a targeted athlete. Regarding LA...... It's a bum argument. The truth no longer matters. The two sides of the debate have become so polarized that rational discussion can no longer take place. I think these scientists are just trying to have a professional discussion about what the data shows. I think they were very naive to think they could hold that discussion in a public forum without the media turning it into anothe LA witch hunt. Now, there's a question........ does anyone know if LA floats? What annoys me is that everyone is still talking about LA. A guy who was an incredible athlete since his adolescence, and who never had a positive test, who never rode for teams with a proven doping culture or program (I acknowledge the Brueneal factor- who did ride for doping teams). While all this is going on, a certain Alberto Contador, who has such poor style and efficiency that it is surprising that he can stay upright on his bike, and who weighs in at a monstrous 65kg, can produce more power output than anyone since Mr 60% Riss rode the Alps in the 53. But nobody wants to ask any questions about a guy who rode for doping teams since he first turned pro, and who seems to defy the laws of physics. If if looks too good to be true......... I want to see Contador's blood values, not LA's. Now, I'm off to have another morning coffee since caffeine is no longer a prohibited substance. _________________ Kind Regards, Wisey Delta Dreamin' Re: Blood tests   Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:17 pm sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California Wisey wrote: Now, there's a question........ does anyone know if LA floats? Like very small rocks? Hey...that is almost a pun! Totally agree with you about Contador. The fact that no one has investigated there is astounding. Lemond wrote about his VO2 max in LeMonde. Lemond did the math and found that in order to do what he did during that first attack at the tour where he took the jersey, he would need something like a 99+ VO2 max...which is off the charts. Again...the issue was generally ignored.... http://www.theorypedia.com/Alberto_Contadors_Verbier_Climb_Not_Possible_Without_EPO_t1118b6e7.html http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-france-2009-contador-vo2max.html _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com Re: Blood tests   Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:12 pm nicolas Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 543 Location: Paris, France Wisey wrote: But nobody wants to ask any questions about a guy who rode for doping teams since he first turned pro It's not true. Greg LeMond did ask the question in french newspaper "Le Monde". And look what good it did to him... _________________ "Ooooh Putain !!! C'est vous ?" -Greg LeMond www.greglemondfan.com   Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:18 pm nicolas Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 543 Location: Paris, France verktyg wrote: I really don't trust the lack of controls used in the sample testing. In a US court of law the whole case would have been thrown out for lack of evidence. Chas. the skeptic Well said. But...I guess a guy like Floyd Landis, training for a TDF win and being followed by many top-notch doctors probably knew about all this, don't you think ? And, just as a reminder, when he was caught, his first scientifical evidence was "I had too much too drink" beer & whiskey...doesn't sound like someone at ease with the issue. But I thought all this was debated in some kind of court in lenght ??? _________________ "Ooooh Putain !!! C'est vous ?" -Greg LeMond www.greglemondfan.com   Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:43 pm Wisey Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 631 Location: Brisbane, Australia Yes, the court of the Right Honourable Sandman . Regardles of the what, how, when, who, innocents, and guiltys, it's pretty cool that our very own Sandman had a role to play in the process . Also, just an obscure point to make: Regardless of the shortcomings of various legal systems, it's pretty cool that this sport must now conform (mostly) to the due legal processes of whichever country is involved. Since cycling is generally a western sport (in terms of the highest levels of racing competition) it is therefore governed by the legal principles of the great democracys of the world. You guys probably don't see much Aussie news up there, but we are having a diplomatic incident at the moment with China. An Aussie businessman (of Chinese descent) doing business in China was rescently arrested and charged with possesion of State secrets. Chinese law allows them to add any "information relating to any business" to the State Secrets Act at any time without public notification. Anyone caught with this information in their possession will have the law applied to them retrospectively. So he was in China as a representative of an Aussie company, doing the same job and gathering the same info he has been doing for the past 10 years. Now he is a spy and is going to prison. All because the Aussie Government didn't want a Chinese State controlled mining company buying a major share of an Aussie mining company here. They were pissed off at us and did this to show their displeasure. Floyd guilty or innocent ? Point is, he was given the opportunity to defend himself , he lost , he did his time , now he's back . It might not be a perfect system, but it's still pretty damn good. All this thanks to those who wrote Magna Carta, who created the Westminster system, who revolted in France, who created the US system, etc, etc. There are many worse places to live ............... Italy for instance _________________ Kind Regards, Wisey Delta Dreamin' Landis v. 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